#073: Josh Rosenthal - 1,000 fans one city at a time
Josh Rosenthal is a singer-songwriter living in Salt Lake City, Utah. Instead of making those long, costly treks to larger, more established music markets like LA, NYC, and Nashville, Josh spent his time cultivating a dedicated fan base closer to home. He concentrated on the smaller scenes that were within his reach. Armed with a public relations degree, a business plan, drive, and talent, Josh discovered that the most important step to success is building real relationships with his fans. In this podcast, Josh shares a bit of his plan and some of the promotional tools that have helped him win die-hard fans.
You can find out more about Josh Rosenthal here http://joshrosenthal.net
Hmm, not sure how things are in Colorado, Utah, Idaho and Texas but, in California I can tell you what Josh is doing/hoping to do in his locale is impossible here.
500 people paying 10 to 15 dollars to see a folk/americana act? Here, it’s a miracle to get 50 people to pay 5 dollars to see 3 popular indie bands on any given night.
Think about that. 50 people on a good night, spend 5 dollars each or 250.00 to be divided amongst 3 bands each with a minimum of 4 members.
In most cases, the venue pays the bands nothing beyond the door so, each band member made $20 dollars for that show. Many drove 40+ miles to
get to the show in 2 or more vehicles. In short, they lose money playing the show.
I’m not saying Josh’ model can’t be done, clearly he has managed to profit somehow in his area but, I am struck by the seeming trend such artists embody.
That being, sponsors.
Sponsors negate the whole idea of being an independant artist. Why? Because the sponsor is simply the replacement for the label.
The artist is beholden to the sponsor first, then the fan, then finally themselves.
In my view, this is a very bad path, worse than the 360 deals currently being profered by labels. And like the labels, the artist ultimately makes nothing until the sponsor is paid back with interrest.
I’d love to believe I’m mistaken in this. That indie artists actually can and do sell enough and more, to profit to the point making the whole effort pencil out as accountants say. But, I find it extremely hard to believe considering even major label artists have a very hard time selling more than a few thousand copies of any given release.
I’m not saying it’s a useless effort, I simply question this kind of path especially considering how large the number of cdbaby artists for example, is and, the relatively small amount of money earned for that number in cd sales over the years.
In my own case, my efforts as an indie have earned me less than $300 dollars but cost me more than $10,000 dollars in 5 years time. Granted my music is not mainstream and not particularly good either. Even so, considering the raw numbers, I doubt I am the exception to the rule.
I see the truth of this daily in my area. Over 100 bands playing for little to no money. Most not even covering travel costs. Many more not even able to afford a half decent PA. I’ve run sound for several of them with my own PA system.
I may come off as negative or unnecessarily grim but the truth is, I’m a realist. We all grow old, the hair thins, your belly gets fat and sooner than later, it’s time to consider where the money will come from when you can no longer take to the road. When you no longer can afford to produce the CD that never earns out and most don’t.
Josh’ story is much like Tony Robbins. The few make bank while the rest following their lead, make nothing. Wrong? Perhaps, realistic, definitely.
This is a great success story. True it would be next to impossible to do in some markets, but Josh is a smart businessman and knows where to concentrate his efforts. No use in selling oranges to people who all have an orange tree in their backyard, right?
Very inspiring podcast. Josh is pretty damned smart. It’s so easy to get lost in the excitement of touring, but focus, focus, focus on your target markets and you’ll go a ton further in your musical career. Great job!
> 500 people paying 10 to 15 dollars to see a folk/americana act?
You’ve never been to a concert held in a megachurch?
Don’t underestimate the power of fitting an existing worldview. Look at Josh’s MySpace page, you’ll see his tour is dominated by churches. I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m saying that for Josh it’s an easy, natural fit.
It’s interesting to hear that Josh doesn’t spend a ton of time on social networks. That can be a huge distraction, and he’s figured out that face-to-face is where it’s at.
scottandrew,
No, I’ve never been to a secular concert within the walls of a church. To do so, in my opinion is to forget what the church represents and it’s purpose for being.
I haven’t listened to this podcast yet, I’ve been off work and only listen when I’m sitting at my desk. I will do last week.
However, I’ve already checked out Josh’s site and the church connection hit me straight away. This has come up before on a previous podcast’s comments section (I think it was the one with David Nevue). As Scott said, it’s not wrong but it does make things slightly easier for the artist.
The church community is very strong (particularly in the US) and everyone supports each other. I see nothing wrong with this and wish it was the same in the secular community but it does go a long way towards explaining Josh’s (and David’s) success, aside from their musical talent.
I suppose I should listen before I comment any more but they were my initial thoughts.
Thanks guys!! Really enjoyed this, and will be contacting him since I live in and play around Boise!
Great podcast. I agree that Josh’s approach might not work for everyone, but then that’s the point of being independent isn’t it?
Just be the best ‘you’ that you can musically and work out what works for you in terms of being a ‘business’ from there. You don’t have to fit into any particular approach, just listen to what others are doing to make money & take the bits you like and come up with ideas of your own as well.
I also think Josh has it spot-on with regards to social networks. Surely most people are bored with the endless ‘me, me, me’ approach of alot of people (artists included) on the internet and would appreciate some proper interaction from someone who’s bothered to take the time.
Josh Rosenthal is EXTREMELY focused on his goals and taking the intermediate steps to get from where he is now to where he ultimately wants to be. Listening to the interview, I was reminded of a recent blog by CyberPR guru Ariel Hiatt (who has also been a guest on the podcast). Here’s the link:
http://bit.ly/QzncT
In the blog (which is pretty long) Ariel mentions Billboard Magazine’s “Maximum Exposure List” - things artists can, conceivably, do to maximize their exposure and get noticed. These would include
1. Synch placement in a TV ad for Apple
2. Performance on “The Oprah Winfrey Show”
12. Cover story in “Rolling Stone” magazine
42. Performance on CBS’ “The Late Show” with David Letterman
The point of Ariel’s blog is: Duh! Who wouldn’t want these types of opportunities? But are those realistic exposure opportunities that every indie artist can strive to reach? Probably NOT. These are more like winning the lottery. The likelihood that any one indie artist will get one of these opportunities is maybe a million to one.
Ariel and her guest bloggers go on to make another list of much more attainable opportunities they call the “Indie Maximum Exposure List” which is divided into 7 sections and 100 opportunities of things an indie artist can realistically be or do that will help them get where they want to go. I won’t repeat all the information here, but in looking over the list, I see a number of things that Josh is already doing that are helping him to have the level of success he is currently having. Instead of buying musical “lottery tickets” and hoping to win the Powerball of getting featured on iTunes or landing an opening slot at Coachella, Josh is focusing on attainable goals.
Here are a few examples of what Josh is already doing:
Category 1: Mindset/Who You Are
1. Pick a niche and dominate it
7. Have professionalism
9. Set goals and have a plan
14. Treat fellow artists as colleagues rather than competition
16. Have humility
Category 2: Fostering relationships
18. Get personal
21. Consistently give out new material
Category 3: Recording & releasing Material
35. Create solidly crafted, well-produced, mastered broadcast-quality songs
37. Think about fan financed recordings
Category 4: Performance
39. Play shows locally and frequently first
40. Get fan generated bookings
He’s doing almost everything on the list (at least all the things that apply to him) and that’s exactly why he’s been so successful. Josh’s specific plan is the plan that works for his music in his market but each indie artist has to decide what his or her music and market and personality call for. The plan you follow should incorporate some of those elements, but it would certainly be foolish to carbon copy anyone else’s plan as a formula for their own success.
Best of luck to all of you. It’s great to be in a community - albeit a virtual one -and to be able to learn from each other’s failures AND successes.
Hey guys,
what an inspiring podcast! Over the past few months I tried to think of how I could continue my solo work and find my own unique niche. As I went along I listened to a lot of your podcast episodes which really helped me a lot to get a better picture of what and who I wanted to be on stage, especially this one! Thanks a lot and keep up the great work!
All the best,
Ben